caine
New Member
Posts: 48
|
Post by caine on Apr 17, 2010 21:39:49 GMT -5
My guitar has a Kahler Steeler which was used by Fender around 1990-1991. It's a Kahler knock-off of the OFR and is stamped Floyd Rose lic. Floyd Rose actually approaced Gary Kahler to make them and they were to be installed on some Kramers but the deal fell through and Kahler was stuck with a bunch of Steelers. He sold them off to recoup his investment and was sued by Floyd Rose. Anyway, I have never seen a Spyder in person. It appears to be a knife edge design with springs in a routed cavity like the Original Floyd Rose and the Steeler rather then being like other Kahlers where the springs are mounted directly under the trem unit itself. Was the Spyder in anyway a licensed Floyd? Does it say Floyd Rose on it anywhere like the Kahler Steeler does?
|
|
|
|
Post by Bodaggit23 on Apr 18, 2010 2:28:21 GMT -5
Yes, it says "Floyd Rose LIC" on each of the string locks. 
|
|
caine
New Member
Posts: 48
|
Post by caine on Apr 18, 2010 13:04:08 GMT -5
Thanks, very nice pics. So then I wonder if it's just the string locking part of the Spyder that's licensed whereas the whole trem is licensed in the case of the Steeler. The Steeler says "Kahler" on the main body and then under it, in fine print, it says "made in usa" and "lic under floyd rose pats".  Anyway, I was looking at an HM on eBay yesterday and the pics are not very good, can't really make out for sure if the trem is a Spyder or Steeler in the pic although the seller claims it is the Spyder and that it's a "Floyd Rose licensed" trem. I just thought that if the Spyder didn't say FR lic on it I could rule it out as being a Spyder which would likely then make the trem a Steeler and date the guitar at about 90-91. But is has the big "Strat" on it and not the digital one which usually means '89 or before. And the HM on eBay I was looking at also is said to have a "C" serial number which I thought was odd. Seems like the first, by alpha, serial numbers started with E, at least for regular production stuff and then went up from there in late 89 or 90. cgi.ebay.com/FENDER-HM-STRAT-80-s-METAL-GUITAR_W0QQitemZ190389664576QQcmdZViewItemQQptZGuitar?hash=item2c541bbb40I have an HM Ultra neck (digital Strat logo, pearl Fender logo with shark tooth inlays). I want to find a good regular production HM to mate it up with from '90-91 with the Steeler trem. The first Ultras came out at that time (90) and had the Steeler trems. I have a '91 Fender HRR with a Steeler and really like it (J serial number). The HRR's were the "traditional" cousin to the HM, same wide fat neck as the HM, jumbo frets, Steeler or Floyd Rose, TBX tone control, factory Dimarzio HB, basswood body, but in a traditional 50's (maple fb) or 60's (rosewood fb) Stratocaster style. And made in Japan, Fender USA on the offset neck plate. Made from 1990 to about 94 or 95. |
|
|
|
Post by lbeast on Apr 18, 2010 14:22:12 GMT -5
My guitar has a Kahler Steeler which was used by Fender around 1990-1991. It's a Kahler knock-off of the OFR and is stamped Floyd Rose lic. Floyd Rose actually approaced Gary Kahler to make them and they were to be installed on some Kramers but the deal fell through and Kahler was stuck with a bunch of Steelers. He sold them off to recoup his investment and was sued by Floyd Rose. Anyway, I have never seen a Spyder in person. It appears to be a knife edge design with springs in a routed cavity like the Original Floyd Rose and the Steeler rather then being like other Kahlers where the springs are mounted directly under the trem unit itself. Was the Spyder in anyway a licensed Floyd? Does it say Floyd Rose on it anywhere like the Kahler Steeler does?
The Spyder is kind of a reverse knife edge tremolo where the tremolo posts (or as Kahler calls them "Standard Hinge Machine Bolts") are knife edged and the tremolo has a slot the knife head of the posts fit into, instead like a FR where the tremolo base has the knife edges that rest just under the heads of the tremolo posts. That is the main difference between the design of the two tremolos IMO. As far as I know, that only part of the tremolo that was patented was the string locking mechanism itself. Don't quote me on that. IMO the reason the Spyder has the phrase "FR Lic." on the string lock blocks, instead of on the main tremolo plate like the Steeler, is because you can barely see it there since it is so small and mixed in with the bigger and busier looking "Kahler" on top. To me it sort of looks like an attempt by Kahler to disguise the fact that they had finally succumbed to making a FR lic. fulcrum tremolo after their war against the FR tremolo throughout the 80s.
BTW, the tremolo in the auction you mention is a Spyder to the best of my knowledge. If I'm a betting man (and I'm not), I'd say that serial number is incorrect, maybe a seller typo. If your really curious, ask the seller if he will show you pics of the actual serial number on the neck and make your decision from there. |
|
caine
New Member
Posts: 48
|
Post by caine on Apr 18, 2010 16:12:57 GMT -5
Just curious where you heard/read this information? The reason I ask is that I used to have the actual court documents showing the final judgement/order of the Floyd Rose vs. Kahler case. I believe, if memory serves me correctly, FR sued over patent royalties which Kahler failed to pay on all FR licensed Kahler products, not just the Steeler. FR won a $1.5 million dollar judgement against Kahler in that case and I believe was required to stop making all FR licensed products. Thus the reason Fender went with Floyd in the early 90s. Kahler actually made the FR Pro for FR for a while in the ealry 90s, which is evidenced by the acronym APMW (American Precision Metal Works) which is embossed in the underside of the tremolo base plate of the FR Pros from the early 90s. A couple of years ago I recall reading that somewhere when doing an internet search of the Steeler. I can't find much doing a search now regarding the history of the Steeler specifically. I suppose it's possible that whatever it was that I read also referenced the Pro and I have since confused the Steeler as also being something that was supposed to sold to Kramer to be installed in a specific model guitar, but I'm pretty sure the Steeler was supposed to be sold via Kramer. I did find this, although it doesn't name the Steeler: www.thefreelibrary.com/Tremolo+wars+continue:+Floyd+Rose+wins+$1.5+mil.+judgment+against...-a016504553It says, "Kahler had the opportunity to sell his Floyd Rose licensed tremolos to Fender..." The Floyd Rose licensed tremolo that was sold to Fender during the corresponding timeframe was the Steeler. It was just before Rose sold rights to Fender in 1992 (end of Fender/Kahler era). The article references the Pro and not the Steeler but it was the Steeler that Kahler was selling to Fender during that time. I guess Kahler is the one that sued first because he was stuck with floyd lic trems after Rose decided to revoke his license because he was concerned about the financial state of Kahler which only made things worse for Kahler. Kahler, feeling like he was being screwed and stuck with FR lic. tooling and trems sold the trems (Steeler to Fender), sued Rose for revoking his license and Rose counter sued. Rose filed suit in March 1992, Kahler had filed 8 months earlier. So, that timeframe, 91-92, was just about the end of when the Steeler was being sold off to Fender which started around '90 and ended in late 91 or early 92. I guess my take is that Kahler lost his licensing agreement in 1990, probably sold out of the Spyder on purpose because he lost the licensing but had already made up the tooling and a large number of Steelers and so switched to selling those instead to recoup his investment (rather then making more Spyders when he had a pile of Steelers). Or, if Kahler was going to keep selling FR licensed trems after losing FR rights, why not just keep making the Spyders? Seems like it would have been because he already had the tooling and Steeler on hand, doesn't make sense he would invest in new tooling and a different trem after losing the FR rights. That could be wrong, just trying to fill in the blanks to what is otherwise sort of a mystery. I don't know if the Pro was ever sold to Fender. I know the OFR was, I have two HRR's one is a "J" serial number which I think is 1989-1990 and an "M" serial number which I think is around 1992. The "J" has the Steeler and the "M" has the Original Floyd Rose. |
|
caine
New Member
Posts: 48
|
Post by caine on Apr 18, 2010 16:21:01 GMT -5
for whatever reason that link I posted in that previous post is not working. cut and past the whole thing into the addy bar or Google: Tremolo wars continue: Floyd Rose wins $1.5 mil. judgment against Kahler and you'll find it on thefreelibrary.com
|
|
|
|
Post by Bodaggit23 on Apr 18, 2010 18:04:16 GMT -5
|
|
